Regarding the tax discussion....I'm 99% sure you wrote about the Buy, Borrow, Die strategy. There's an article about it in the New Yorker recently, but it's paywalled. It's available on Apple News too (where I'm reading it).
Beyond the strategy, they list some pretty compelling facts for change:
Much of the debate around American tax policy focuses on the income-tax rate paid by the very wealthiest Americans. But the bulk of those peopleâs fortunes doesnât qualify as income in the first place. A 2021 ProPublica investigation of the private tax records of Americaâs 25 richest individuals found that they collectively paid an effective tax rate of just 3.4 percent on their total wealth gain from 2014 to 2018. Musk paid 3.3 percent, Jeff Bezos 1 percent, and Buffettâwho has famously argued for imposing higher income-tax rates on the superrichâjust 0.1 percent.
Larry Ellison, a co-founder of Oracle and Americaâs fourth-richest person, has pledged more than $30 billion of his companyâs stock as collateral in order to fund his lavish lifestyle, which includes building a $270 million yacht, buying a $300 million island, and purchasing an $80 million mansion. A Forbes analysis found that, as of April 2022, Musk had pledged Tesla shares worth more than $94 billion, which âserve as an evergreen credit facility, giving Musk access to cash when he needs it.â
This strategy isnât as common among the merely very rich, who may not have the expensive tastes that Ellison and Musk do, but it isnât rare either. Liscow and Fox calculated that the top 1 percent of wealth-holders, excluding the richest 400 Americans, borrowed more than $1 trillion in 2022.
Trillions of dollars per year in untaxed wealth...while the rabble fight over the scraps. In Musk, you have a guy not paying taxes at all talking about the damage that inefficiency is doing to the country. The same country that created the infrastructure and systems that allowed him to become so wealthy.
Yes, that was me (and others). It would be dead simple, an proper/appropriate, to change the tax rules to say that if you use your stock as collateral, you have recognized a gain in the value and it should be taxed. This is simple, common sense, and it would eliminate 90+% of this practice (you could still do it, but it wouldn't have the tax advantage).
I listened to Ezra's Klien's podcast this week "Democrats Need to Face Why Trump Won". In the context of this website and the discussions with Kurt (et al), I think it provides some interesting insights into the country. Here is an AI summary of the discussion:
Ezra Kleinâs podcast discusses why Democrats lost to Trump, citing insights from David Shor. Trump gained among nonwhite and younger voters, and economic concerns like inflation were decisive. Educational polarization grew, with less-educated voters favoring Republicans. Democrats focused on Trumpâs anti-democratic behavior, but voters prioritized economic improvements. Shor suggests Democrats should address economic issues and Trumpâs unfulfilled promises. Klein concludes that Democrats must adapt to voter concerns to regain ground. The party needs to confront these realities to effectively compete in future elections.
As I listen, I can't help but hear Kurt saying "no shit, that's what I've been saying for years!" No really... but this explains a lot of things we all sorta know but struggle to organize/verbalize.
Here is a gift link to The NY Times article (with the podcast as a video). It's worth viewing, because all of the charts are in the very long article below the video.
I have a message for my fellow plutocrats and zillionaires and for anyone who lives in a gated bubble world: Wake up. Wake up. It cannot last. Because if we do not do something to fix the glaring economic inequities in our society, the pitchforks will come for us, for no free and open society can long sustain this kind of rising economic inequality. It has never happened. There are no examples. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state or an uprising.
Politicians have learned that there is no consequence for giving away public funds. Unfortunately, that is all under the 'spend' side of the ledger that will need to be fixed someday.
Regarding the tax discussion....I'm 99% sure you wrote about the Buy, Borrow, Die strategy. There's an article about it in the New Yorker recently, but it's paywalled. It's available on Apple News too (where I'm reading it).
Beyond the strategy, they list some pretty compelling facts for change:
Much of the debate around American tax policy focuses on the income-tax rate paid by the very wealthiest Americans. But the bulk of those peopleâs fortunes doesnât qualify as income in the first place. A 2021 ProPublica investigation of the private tax records of Americaâs 25 richest individuals found that they collectively paid an effective tax rate of just 3.4 percent on their total wealth gain from 2014 to 2018. Musk paid 3.3 percent, Jeff Bezos 1 percent, and Buffettâwho has famously argued for imposing higher income-tax rates on the superrichâjust 0.1 percent.
Larry Ellison, a co-founder of Oracle and Americaâs fourth-richest person, has pledged more than $30 billion of his companyâs stock as collateral in order to fund his lavish lifestyle, which includes building a $270 million yacht, buying a $300 million island, and purchasing an $80 million mansion. A Forbes analysis found that, as of April 2022, Musk had pledged Tesla shares worth more than $94 billion, which âserve as an evergreen credit facility, giving Musk access to cash when he needs it.â
This strategy isnât as common among the merely very rich, who may not have the expensive tastes that Ellison and Musk do, but it isnât rare either. Liscow and Fox calculated that the top 1 percent of wealth-holders, excluding the richest 400 Americans, borrowed more than $1 trillion in 2022.
Trillions of dollars per year in untaxed wealth...while the rabble fight over the scraps. In Musk, you have a guy not paying taxes at all talking about the damage that inefficiency is doing to the country. The same country that created the infrastructure and systems that allowed him to become so wealthy.
I have a message for my fellow plutocrats and zillionaires and for anyone who lives in a gated bubble world: Wake up. Wake up. It cannot last. Because if we do not do something to fix the glaring economic inequities in our society, the pitchforks will come for us, for no free and open society can long sustain this kind of rising economic inequality. It has never happened. There are no examples. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state or an uprising.
Politicians have learned that there is no consequence for giving away public funds. Unfortunately, that is all under the 'spend' side of the ledger that will need to be fixed someday.
There are a lot of wealthy, smart, reasonable people who agree....
Bill Gates âUnder the tax system I would go for, the wealthy would, say, have a third as muchâ money.
Warren Buffett - âThe wealthy are definitely undertaxed relative to the general population.â
George Soros - âI am in favor of taxing the rich, including a wealth tax.â
Mark Cuban - âItâs patriotic to get obscenely rich then pay big taxes.â
Marc Benioff - âIncreasing taxes on high-income individuals like myself would help generate the trillions of dollars that we desperately need.â
Eli Broad - âItâs time to start talking seriously about a wealth tax⦠Itâs time for those of us with great wealth to commit to reducing income inequality.â
A lot of very rich people have signed the "Giving Pledge".... including Elon and Zuck. These folks know their wealth is ridiculous and needs to be distributed. It's totally fair to say that the government isn't a good steward for the money, but the reality is they are spending it regardless. That needs to be fixed, and government should be more efficient, but DOGE and lower taxes aren't the way.
I noted this before here... Trump is talking about reducing the debt by selling "Gold Card" US residency status to lower the debt, meanwhile he supports a $5,000 per person DOGE refund to "share the savings". Insanity. Raise taxes, lower the cost of the government, balance the budget. 2/3rds of that used to be Republican bedrock.
and Nick Hanauer:
I have a message for my fellow plutocrats and zillionaires and for anyone who lives in a gated bubble world: Wake up. Wake up. It cannot last. Because if we do not do something to fix the glaring economic inequities in our society, the pitchforks will come for us, for no free and open society can long sustain this kind of rising economic inequality. It has never happened. There are no examples. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state or an uprising.
Politicians have learned that there is no consequence for giving away public funds. Unfortunately, that is all under the 'spend' side of the ledger that will need to be fixed someday.
And for the record - yes we should be taxing the rich far more than we are now.
There are a lot of wealthy, smart, reasonable people who agree....
Bill Gates âUnder the tax system I would go for, the wealthy would, say, have a third as muchâ money.
Warren Buffett - âThe wealthy are definitely undertaxed relative to the general population.â
George Soros - âI am in favor of taxing the rich, including a wealth tax.â
Mark Cuban - âItâs patriotic to get obscenely rich then pay big taxes.â
Marc Benioff - âIncreasing taxes on high-income individuals like myself would help generate the trillions of dollars that we desperately need.â
Eli Broad - âItâs time to start talking seriously about a wealth tax⦠Itâs time for those of us with great wealth to commit to reducing income inequality.â
A lot of very rich people have signed the "Giving Pledge".... including Elon and Zuck. These folks know their wealth is ridiculous and needs to be distributed. It's totally fair to say that the government isn't a good steward for the money, but the reality is they are spending it regardless. That needs to be fixed, and government should be more efficient, but DOGE and lower taxes aren't the way.
I noted this before here... Trump is talking about reducing the debt by selling "Gold Card" US residency status to lower the debt, meanwhile he supports a $5,000 per person DOGE refund to "share the savings". Insanity. Raise taxes, lower the cost of the government, balance the budget. 2/3rds of that used to be Republican bedrock.
Yes...and that's the argument democrats SHOULD be making for higher tax rates...
not the cultural war/tax the rich nonsense.
I don't disagree, but their policies are a lot closer to this than donald's. So saying I'll vote for the felon who we know to be unstable and will likely damage our world standing because the democrats didn't make a strong enough argument is a not a great position.
Both parties have abandoned fiscal responsibility in the last 2.5 decades. Clinton/Gore were the last ones to pay down any of the debt. They also eliminated 400K plus government jobs and closed truly wasteful agencies. Republicans spend worse than democrats and cut taxes (revenues to pay for spending).
If we have any hope of addressing our fiscal problems, spending will need to be addressed. Healthcare and Defense are the slices that are big enough to make an impact. And again - Clinton (Hillary in this case) is the one who made a reasonable proposal decades ago, that we did nothing with.
And for the record - yes we should be taxing the rich far more than we are now.
Lots of good stuff here, but to the bolded - People like to talk about the 90% tax rates we used to have. But the reality is no one paid that. They didn't pay because it made more sense to re-invest profits into growth/equipment/other cap ex instead of paying it all in taxes. That was the intent, and it worked. The economy grew and everyone prospered because no one was hording money because it didn't make sense to do so. It made our country better because those that were doing well spread it around and it helped everyone (rising tide and all).
Yes...and that's the argument democrats SHOULD be making for higher tax rates...
not the cultural war/tax the rich nonsense.
True ? My average annual earnings over 59 years has been $11,864.
Granted that the cost of living is much greater in Cali than Ohio.
Never said that you had it easier.
If that's true, then that would indicate you have been living below the poverty level most of your life. It would seem that you would be needing to scrimp and save just to buy food and keep a roof over your head on a day-to-day basis.
Coming back to add that as usually this is probably a bit disingenuous. Minimum wage in 1970 was $1.60/hr, and median wages through most of his life were a lot less (~ 20K in 1980 and barely $30K in 1990), so averages can be deceiving - 59 years would probably indicate that he's counting a lot of very early years with low $s. Additionally, it's not clear if this is adjusted earnings, total gross, or if it counts for any other revenues (especially untaxed earnings). So it's likely not a good representation of his $s.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Mar 19, 2025 - 10:29am
islander wrote:
Life isn't easy anywhere, the places that are happier get that, and work together to make things better. âAmerica first' is the antithesis of that and an internalized ideology that is holding us back. Our exceptionalism comes from our history of lifting each other up.
For the most part, you're right. I was born much luckier than most. The money that paid for the schooling was from 2 hour commutes each way 5 days a week for 11 years. We made choices. No second homes...no lavish vacations...but the ability to afford private schools and colleges is something everyone understood and appreciated. I attended private schools and coasted. My kids were much better than me. That comes from their mother, and her drive that came from being one of seven in a very modest household. I was lazy, maybe because school and life came easy. White privileged? Hell yes. Was I negatively impacted by DEI in my 50s... hell yes.
What's interesting about our perspectives is that, logically speaking, they're inverted.
I should be for the grifter in the White House. Lower taxes, no social programs, no loan forgiveness, no BLM, no trans anything.... the hell with everyone... give me back my white privilege. Instead, you take that on, and suggest that my expressed concern for fairness is virtue signaling. I can afford those positions...right?
I've known a lot of people who earn a lot of money, and none of them need any more. The incentive to earn also would not go away if they paid more in taxes. Sure, they want to keep all of it, but they would still work, and invest, and spend in very similar ways if they paid 10% more in taxes. I think they should, and people who make a "shit-ton" of money, should pay even more. A tax rate of 75% on income over $25M wouldn't stop anyone from wanting to make a billion. What it might do though, is tamp down greed and have those in a position to do so....consider the return on destroying another small business or using their wealth as leverage for another yacht. The notion that these people invest in the economy is a lie they tell you so you keep supporting them. Trust me...they know better.
Ultimately I feel the country would be a better place if we paid our bills. That isn't just debt, it's social too. If you want to force someone to have a child they'd sooner not add to the planet, then it's your job to find a way for that kid to eat if the parents can't. If you need medical assistance in your daily activities, you shouldn't have to have $20k per month for support (my aunt is in this situation today). We can afford these things....we just don't prioritize them. We prioritize excess, luxury, and selfishness.
So full circle back to the start of this discussion... you somehow see Joe Biden as a villain for wanting to eliminate life altering student-debt? In his attempts to do so, he made stupid statements about "getting around" the supreme court (for cases brought by the "family first, all life is precious" Republican Party). He didn't ignore their decisions, and do anything they said he couldn't. He looked for alternatives.
You use this argument in support of a man who ignored a direct order, and deported people who still have rights in this country, even if they don't belong here. Those two statements can both simultaneously be true. He arrested a green-card holder over a Gaza protest? He's losing in court not because he's Trump, but because he's doing things that are against the principals we've lived and died for over our 250 years. And you don't see it.
I don't blame you for being angry, but what's frustrating is that you can't see your anger is the weakness being exploited by Trump. His superpower is to say exactly what you want to hear, even if its fantasy. Did you ever think that maybe the Rights preoccupation with virtue signalling isn't about appearances... but actually doing the right thing? Instead of being seen as immoral, they suggest that anyone doing good is only doing it for the performance aspect. That's just not true. There are a lot of good people out there, doing things in support of others because they know it's the right thing to do...with or without signaling it.
The only thing I'm sure of is that Donald J Trump doesn't give a shit about you, regardless of what he says and how that makes you feel.
Lots of good stuff here, but to the bolded - People like to talk about the 90% tax rates we used to have. But the reality is no one paid that. They didn't pay because it made more sense to re-invest profits into growth/equipment/other cap ex instead of paying it all in taxes. That was the intent, and it worked. The economy grew and everyone prospered because no one was hording money because it didn't make sense to do so. It made our country better because those that were doing well spread it around and it helped everyone (rising tide and all).
I also have been very fortunate. My upbringing was financially poor, but rich with love and support. I have a lot of cousins and while few have a lot of money, they all live rich/full lives. I'm fortunate to get both, but I don't have the vast fortune K thinks. This mostly because I've made sure we were comfortable, but then I've found other places to spend and other causes to support. I've done some extravagant/cool things for sure, but I also support larger taxes on big earnings (a fee for the support that allows such big earnings), and I think social programs that support the poorest are good for everyone.
I'm fortunate to have had a broad range of experience too. I have learned that one of the most rewarding things you can do is help someone else. Not even financially, just showing up for people. We spend a fair bit of time in Mexico, my portable jump starter gets used a lot. The genuine gratitude of people when you just stop to help them is fulfilling. Even if you don't help, just stopping for the guy with his hood up and asking if he needs help is a huge kindness that our world benefits from. Commiserating and working through a language barrier while trying to figure out if the overheating truck is normal or a new thing and if the guy needs a ride, makes his day a little better and let's him know that he's not alone out there. Life isn't easy anywhere, the places that are happier get that, and work together to make things better. 'America first' is the antithesis of that and an internalized ideology that is holding us back. Our exceptionalism comes from our history of lifting each other up.
True ? My average annual earnings over 59 years has been $11,864.
Granted that the cost of living is much greater in Cali than Ohio.
Never said that you had it easier.
If that's true, then that would indicate you have been living below the poverty level most of your life. It would seem that you would be needing to scrimp and save just to buy food and keep a roof over your head on a day-to-day basis.
Ultimately it is almost inconceivable that you are a Trump supporter given that he has stacked his administration with unqualified billionaires who don't have the slightest clue of what living is like for you and nor do they care. You full well know that any tax breaks he is angling for are going to benefit this uber-wealthy club and you don't even bat an eye? Musk is purging a crazy amount of working Joes (like yourself) in the government and you applaud it?
That 900k is 200k more than I have earned in my lifetime since 1966 to now. That is 59 years of working. That alone puts you in with the 1% 'ers as far as I am concerned. You and islander.
That makes you infinitely far more smarter than me and me not even worthy of speaking with you, cuz that is how you guys roll and explains your thoughts regarding me personally.
You are far more superior to me and remind me whenever you can.
It also makes me one of the poorest and lowliest members here. I bet even manbird has done better than me.
do please enjoy your white privileged life. Oh and knock off the ordinary average guy thing. No need to pretend anymore.
For the most part, you're right. I was born much luckier than most. The money that paid for the schooling was from 2 hour commutes each way 5 days a week for 11 years. We made choices. No second homes...no lavish vacations...but the ability to afford private schools and colleges is something everyone understood and appreciated. I attended private schools and coasted. My kids were much better than me. That comes from their mother, and her drive that came from being one of seven in a very modest household. I was lazy, maybe because school and life came easy. White privileged? Hell yes. Was I negatively impacted by DEI in my 50s... hell yes.
What's interesting about our perspectives is that, logically speaking, they're inverted.
I should be for the grifter in the White House. Lower taxes, no social programs, no loan forgiveness, no BLM, no trans anything.... the hell with everyone... give me back my white privilege. Instead, you take that on, and suggest that my expressed concern for fairness is virtue signaling. I can afford those positions...right?
I've known a lot of people who earn a lot of money, and none of them need any more. The incentive to earn also would not go away if they paid more in taxes. Sure, they want to keep all of it, but they would still work, and invest, and spend in very similar ways if they paid 10% more in taxes. I think they should, and people who make a "shit-ton" of money, should pay even more. A tax rate of 75% on income over $25M wouldn't stop anyone from wanting to make a billion. What it might do though, is tamp down greed and have those in a position to do so....consider the return on destroying another small business or using their wealth as leverage for another yacht. The notion that these people invest in the economy is a lie they tell you so you keep supporting them. Trust me...they know better.
Ultimately I feel the country would be a better place if we paid our bills. That isn't just debt, it's social too. If you want to force someone to have a child they'd sooner not add to the planet, then it's your job to find a way for that kid to eat if the parents can't. If you need medical assistance in your daily activities, you shouldn't have to have $20k per month for support (my aunt is in this situation today). We can afford these things....we just don't prioritize them. We prioritize excess, luxury, and selfishness.
So full circle back to the start of this discussion... you somehow see Joe Biden as a villain for wanting to eliminate life altering student-debt? In his attempts to do so, he made stupid statements about "getting around" the supreme court (for cases brought by the "family first, all life is precious" Republican Party). He didn't ignore their decisions, and do anything they said he couldn't. He looked for alternatives.
You use this argument in support of a man who ignored a direct order, and deported people who still have rights in this country, even if they don't belong here. Those two statements can both simultaneously be true. He arrested a green-card holder over a Gaza protest? He's losing in court not because he's Trump, but because he's doing things that are against the principals we've lived and died for over our 250 years. And you don't see it.
I don't blame you for being angry, but what's frustrating is that you can't see your anger is the weakness being exploited by Trump. His superpower is to say exactly what you want to hear, even if its fantasy. Did you ever think that maybe the Rights preoccupation with virtue signalling isn't about appearances... but actually doing the right thing? Instead of being seen as immoral, they suggest that anyone doing good is only doing it for the performance aspect. That's just not true. There are a lot of good people out there, doing things in support of others because they know it's the right thing to do...with or without signaling it.
The only thing I'm sure of is that Donald J Trump doesn't give a shit about you, regardless of what he says and how that makes you feel.
