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haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 10, 2017 - 3:04pm

 kurtster wrote:

Heard the same.  That was so as to not harm anyone downwind.

I'm looking at this incident as a warning shot (symbolic) more than anything else.  Assad can't be taken out just yet.  His replacement could be much worse or even worse, Syria becomes another Libya.  Its stability and predictability no matter how bad that is over outright chaos.

It changes nothing in Syria, but globally, the game changes which is more important.  Timing is everything.  This was the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.
 

 
1) The Russian explanation that the attack hit a rebel gas cache was considered not credible for several reasons including that nerve agents are stored in two parts so an attack won't cause a release. Think about it from a military perspective - in a war the last thing you want is to gas yourself.

2) This knowledge implies of where the nerve agents were stored implies that the US most likely knew Syria was breaking the agreement on getting rid of them and did nothing until civilians were killed.

3) I agree it sounds like a warning shot, but it actually makes the US look weak and it made it harder for the US to operate since the Russians pulled out of the operational agreement to keep both countries from shooting down each other's planes.

I think it actually strengthened Assad's position. 
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 10, 2017 - 7:25am

 kurtster wrote:

Heard the same.  That was so as to not harm anyone downwind.

I'm looking at this incident as a warning shot (symbolic) more than anything else.  Assad can't be taken out just yet.  His replacement could be much worse or even worse, Syria becomes another Libya.  Its stability and predictability no matter how bad that is over outright chaos.

It changes nothing in Syria, but globally, the game changes which is more important.  Timing is everything.  This was the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.
 

 
You forgot to sign it "Boom Shanka"
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 10, 2017 - 6:25am

 kurtster wrote:
  This was the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.
 

 
Mmmm, finger chili!
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 10, 2017 - 4:44am

 haresfur wrote:

Heard they also left the munitions cache's intact but cant find the link so I suppose you take it with a grain of salt. In any case they are already using the airfield to bomb the towns again. Certainly the raid was only symbolic and was insignificant from a military perspective. Make of that what you will.

 
Heard the same.  That was so as to not harm anyone downwind.

I'm looking at this incident as a warning shot (symbolic) more than anything else.  Assad can't be taken out just yet.  His replacement could be much worse or even worse, Syria becomes another Libya.  Its stability and predictability no matter how bad that is over outright chaos.

It changes nothing in Syria, but globally, the game changes which is more important.  Timing is everything.  This was the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.
 


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 9, 2017 - 1:02pm

 miamizsun wrote:
i only caught part of it

but it appears jeremy scahill just blistered cnn

i'd say it's unlikely he'll be asked back  {#Lol}
 

Referring to Zakaria, Scahill said "if that guy could have sex with this cruise missile attack, I think he would do it." And Brian Williams, he said, "seemed to be in true love with the cruise missile strike, in a despicable way invoking Leonard Cohen's name." Pressed by Stelter if Zakaria's comments were taken out of context, Scahill said, "Fareed Zakaria was also a major cheerleader for the Iraq War."

Scahill also criticized corporate media for elevating the voices of retired military who may now be personally profiting from continued U.S. warfare.

Also amusing is how champions of rugged individualism feel compelled to talk as a (Borg/Negan) collective...
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 9, 2017 - 11:18am

 kurtster wrote:

FWIW, we took out 20 warplanes during the op.  Maybe we might want to use the runways ourselves for some reason in the future.  Or we leave the temptation for Assad to keep going ... and when he does he provides us with a reason to really sock it to him.

I dunno, its just what I first thought when I heard that we left the runways intact. 

 
Heard they also left the munitions cache's intact but cant find the link so I suppose you take it with a grain of salt. In any case they are already using the airfield to bomb the towns again. Certainly the raid was only symbolic and was insignificant from a military perspective. Make of that what you will.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 9, 2017 - 8:17am

i only caught part of it

but it appears jeremy scahill just blistered cnn

i'd say it's unlikely he'll be asked back  {#Lol}

 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2017 - 9:22am

 sirdroseph wrote:

"I really believe we should have and still should take out his air fields and prevent him from being able to use them to bomb innocent people and drop sarin gas on them” Clinton made the comment during an interview with New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof at a women's summit.

 
FWIW, we took out 20 warplanes during the op.  Maybe we might want to use the runways ourselves for some reason in the future.  Or we leave the temptation for Assad to keep going ... and when he does he provides us with a reason to really sock it to him.

I dunno, its just what I first thought when I heard that we left the runways intact. 
sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2017 - 8:53am

 Steely_D wrote:

But her emails! (And wasn't she the warmonger?)

 
"I really believe we should have and still should take out his air fields and prevent him from being able to use them to bomb innocent people and drop sarin gas on them” Clinton made the comment during an interview with New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof at a women's summit.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2017 - 7:59am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Steely_D wrote:
But her emails! (And wasn't she the warmonger?)

It took Trump 77 days into his presidency to bomb Syria. Hillary was ready on day one.

Tell me again how I wasted my vote by not picking either of these corrupt oligarchs.

 
You'll never hear that from me (as long as you voted). With the supreme court BS, and what looks to be several more years of infighting for little gain, I just keep asking people - "how are those two parties working out for you?".  II can't believe we have to force compromise on some people. I don't think many people live their day to day lives with such rabid alignment to an ideology, so why do they insist on it with our politics.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2017 - 7:41am

 Steely_D wrote:
But her emails! (And wasn't she the warmonger?)

It took Trump 77 days into his presidency to bomb Syria. Hillary was ready on day one.

Tell me again how I wasted my vote by not picking either of these corrupt oligarchs.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 10:03pm

 Steely_D wrote:
But her emails! (And wasn't she the warmonger?)
 
What difference at this point does it make?
Steely_D

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Location: The foot of Mount Belzoni
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 8:54pm

 R_P wrote: 
But her emails! (And wasn't she the warmonger?)
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 6:14pm

The Spoils of War: Trump Lavished With Media and Bipartisan Praise For Bombing Syria (Greenwald)
In every type of government, nothing unites people behind the leader more quickly, reflexively or reliably than war. Donald Trump now sees how true that is, as the same establishment leaders in U.S. politics and media who have spent months denouncing him as a mentally unstable and inept authoritarian and unprecedented threat to democracy are standing and applauding him as he launches bombs at Syrian government targets.

Trump, on Thursday night, ordered an attack that the Pentagon said included the launching of 59 Tomahawk missiles which “targeted aircraft, hardened aircraft shelters, petroleum and logistical storage, ammunition supply bunkers, air defense systems, and radars.” The governor of Homs, the Syrian province where the attack occurred, said early this morning that the bombs killed seven civilians and wounded nine.

The Pentagon’s statement said the attack was “in retaliation for the regime of Bashar Assad using nerve agents to attack his own people.” Both Syria and Russia vehemently deny that the Syrian military used chemical weapons. (...)


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 11:09am

 steeler wrote:
 Not delving into what information is accurate regarding the latest chemical bombing and the U.S. bombing response last night, just want to point out that one has to critically examine whatever sources one tends to resort to for information.  The second sentence in the paragraph above is not quite accurate.  The link provided in the main story does not really support it. Ironic that a story about people playing fast and loose with the facts then plays fast and loose with the facts.       
 
i think he's referring to her last blurb on the video 

regards

 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 7:21am

 miamizsun wrote:
i've been busy with work (time sensitive stuff)

so i haven't been keeping abreast of the latest media churn

but i gleaned this over coffee earlier

to use a sports metaphor

"looks like call from the old playbook"

These Are the Missing Facts about the Chemical Attack in Syria

 

The U.N. thoroughly investigated the first 2013 attack. The U.N Commission of Inquiry’s Carla Del Ponte ultimately said the evidence indicated the attack was carried out by the Syrian rebels – not the Syrian government.

 



  

Not delving into what information is accurate regarding the latest chemical bombing and the U.S. bombing response last night, just want to point out that one has to critically examine whatever sources one tends to resort to for information.  The second sentence in the paragraph above is not quite accurate.  The link provided in the main story does not really support it. Ironic that a story about people playing fast and loose with the facts then plays fast and loose with the facts.       




miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 4:41am

i've been busy with work (time sensitive stuff)

so i haven't been keeping abreast of the latest media churn

but i gleaned this over coffee earlier

to use a sports metaphor

"looks like call from the old playbook"

These Are the Missing Facts about the Chemical Attack in Syria

On Tuesday, yet another chemical weapons attack occurred in Syria. This particular attack took place in the Idlib province, and dozens have reportedly died as a result.

The U.S. attempted to frame the evidence to justify a strike on Assad without even considering a terror group that should have been a prime suspect.

Syria is no stranger to chemical weapons attacks. In 2013, there were two notably devastating attacks, both of which the Obama administration used to try to justify a direct strike on the Assad government.

The U.N. thoroughly investigated the first 2013 attack. The U.N Commission of Inquiry’s Carla Del Ponte ultimately said the evidence indicated the attack was carried out by the Syrian rebels – not the Syrian government. Despite this, support for the Syrian rebels from the U.S. and its allies only increased, raising serious questions about Obama’s sincerity when condemning chemical attacks.


The U.S. attempted to frame the evidence to justify a strike on Assad without even considering a terror group that should have been a prime suspect.


Biased Evidence

Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh found the second major attack was committed in a similar manner. Hersh found that the U.S. quite deliberately attempted to frame the evidence to justify a strike on Assad without even considering al-Nusra, a terror group with access to nerve agents that should have been a prime suspect.

In 2016, the U.N. concluded that the Syrian government had, indeed, used chemical weapons during the years-long conflict, but that ISIS had, too. This is in light of the fact that in 2013, the U.N. also declared that the regime no longer possessed chemical weapons.


Without directly confirming any of the intelligence, the media and politicians are out in full force condemning the Assad government.

 

News Molded to Fit Foreign Policy Agenda

Even a New Zealand newspaper, the New Zealand Herald, ran an ambitious article entitled “Donald Trump is the only leader who can stop Syrian atrocities.” No – it is not the Onion.

In the article, the writer ignores all of the aforementioned reports regarding attacks in 2013, claiming that in that year, “the Syrian regime used sarin.” She also claims “Obama did nothing” in response.

The claim that Obama “did nothing” makes no sense. In 2016 alone, Obama dropped over 26,000 bombs – almost half of which landed in Syria. These bombs also rained on Syrian troops in direct violation of international law. As president, Obama also oversaw the CIA’s expenditures of about $1 billion a year training Syrian rebels.

 

Is it that we only care about chemical weapons attacks if there is an indication that the Syrian government was behind it?




R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 3:12am

 haresfur wrote:
There is always a way to claim doubt in the face of evidence if you don't want to believe the information. You know, kind of like climate change denial.

I will say that I think Obama's Syria policy was a disaster. He supported the democracy movement and then left them hanging and created enough of a power vacuum for ISIS. Then he refused to buck Congress over responding to the chemical weapons attacks and was left with a diplomatic failure and provided an opening for Russia to intervene and really complicate things. If Trump was a statesman, he would say, "Ok Assad, we tried a diplomatic agreement so you wouldn't use chemical weapons again and you broke that. So here's what I'm doing."

I for one find less morality in intervening to prop up the government than intervening when someone is committing crimes against humanity. Or is government crime ok if you keep it inside your borders? 

Your comparison to science is ludicrous and self-serving. We're talking about a war zone and the proverbial fog, not a phenomena studied by thousands of people with expert knowledge. If one denies the latter, it's simply ignorant and foolish. To be suspicious of political motives is another ball game entirely. And it's far more rational to wait for an independent investigation than to rely on hearsay and expected/suspected motives of actors involved.
 
Lesser evil-ism to the rescue. You keep dodging the obvious problem. Do you understand the concept of sovereignty? Or has past U.S. intervention in your own country made you completely servile? As some might say, "if you can't beat them, join them."

The worst dictators are the ones that don't buy our products...
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 2:57am

This smells really fishy.  Look, who is to gain from yesterday's events?  Al Qaeda (rebels, tomato, tomato), the Neocon war machine and NATO (EU). Assad either got played by Al Qaeda placing their chemical stores around innocent civilian shields of which there is much precedence or could it be Assad is telling the truth, in their normal horrific bombings they accidentally hit the weapons store.  Assad purposely using chemical weapons in this manner when they were clearly winning and did not need American involvement just makes no damn sense.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 2:42am

 R_P wrote:
There is always "overwhelming" evidence if one should believe the cheerleaders of "preventive" wars...
 
Regardless of who did what, it remains just as illegal for one country to just bomb another to pieces to exact revenge, or to change a regime to one's liking. Aside from the illegality, similar endeavours in recent years have shown that it doesn't quite yield the expected (but oh-so-noble) results. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

 
Gotta agree with you here.{#Yes}
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