follow up here. We are going to be out of town on election day, so we need to vote early. Mrs. Islander went by the county election office and showed her ID. It was verified against her registration, and because she is married to me (some guys have all the luck), and we share an address, they let her get my ballot too. They said that they had marked her off and she shouldn't get a ballot in the mail, but emphasized only one ballot should be used just in case. We will vote early, the ballots will be verified again (signature, and the coded ballot). I will have a code to verify it has been recorded.
I can vote anytime I want now. I can leisurely review the candidates and contemplate my options on the special measures. I can cross check the sponsors and deduce their goals and see if they align with mine. Then I can take my trip secure in the knowledge that I tried.
I was on the debate team in high school so somewhere around 1975 we were arguing about voting registration then. My solution was a simple combination: voter registration + selective service registration + driver's license + SSN all done simultaneously. Of course, they became active at different times depending on age and "need" for the draft, etc. But do the flipping paperwork all at once.
I could see that but with voter registration, you still need to be able to establish your legal residence in a particular district so you still need to prove where you live and prove you really are who you say you are, so back to square 1.
I was on the debate team in high school so somewhere around 1975 we were arguing about voting registration then. My solution was a simple combination: voter registration + selective service registration + driver's license + SSN all done simultaneously. Of course, they became active at different times depending on age and "need" for the draft, etc. But do the flipping paperwork all at once.
I could see that but with voter registration, you still need to be able to establish your legal residence in a particular district so you still need to prove where you live and prove you really are who you say you are, so back to square 1.
It would be nice if we could rely on the honor system where people who are registered and able simply vote, without suspicion of fraud. Like it would be nice to believe we can trust companies and managers to operate in a free market system without the need for regulatory oversight. Or that people wouldnât walk out of stores without paying.
Maybe itâs working now, but systems break down. I did read your links and they are reassuring no doubt, but if you ask me to have faith in a system that relies upon signature verification in an age when no one even signs anything anymore, well I see potential problems with that. So, I canât simply rely on the fact that to date, we have no evidence of voting issues. Not a complaint, but an observation/request.
Butâ¦my bigger issue with all this is the politics. Whether itâs the republicans complaining of voter fraud, when there is none, or the democrats saying the system is completely fine as isâ¦as they did with immigration, or spendingâ¦I donât trust either side.
The republicans have been using the signature verification as another form of voter suppression in some places. Go to a predominantly minority district and complain that the signatures aren't an exact match and throw the ballots into the pile that people could possibly check that their vote wasn't counted then go through the process of proving it was really them then get it counted, but most people probably won't because they don't have time and because they voted properly so why would they assume that someone didn't count their ballot? Even by experts, signature matching is not a very exact science and how would you expect some volunteer to do it properly, even if they are trying to.
It is hard to design a system that has absolute verification and is also anonymous. And a system should cater to the not insignificant number of people who will manage to screw up. Paper ballot? Did they completely fill in the little dot properly? Did they use the wrong ink or pencil or whatever? Any rule designed to prevent fraud is a rule that can be used for voter suppression. I suppose you could tattoo a QR code on everyone so they can pull up their ballot to vote in person or absentee.
You still get back to all the republican conspiracy theory that there are hordes of people from out of state are bussed in to vote illegally and that hordes of illegal immigrants are voting, instead of laying low, which would be much more logical for them.
As an aside, Australians living in New Zealand can vote there. I think the logic is that they are subject to the laws so should have a say. Australia doesn't give New Zealanders the same rights, probably because they are still pissed off that New Zealand wanted to be their own country.
I was on the debate team in high school so somewhere around 1975 we were arguing about voting registration then. My solution was a simple combination: voter registration + selective service registration + driver's license + SSN all done simultaneously. Of course, they became active at different times depending on age and "need" for the draft, etc. But do the flipping paperwork all at once.
So, the issue is with your perception and mistrust of the process?
Funny how we seem to have basically trusted the process until a certain someone and their party did their damnedest to sow the seeds of doubt. Well, many of those seeds have germinated.
Yup, and delegitimizing democratic institutions is a feature of one specific type of extreme right political ideology that that âsomeoneâ often gets labeled as from time to time by some critics.
It would be nice if we could rely on the honor system where people who are registered and able simply vote, without suspicion of fraud. Like it would be nice to believe we can trust companies and managers to operate in a free market system without the need for regulatory oversight. Or that people wouldnât walk out of stores without paying.
Maybe itâs working now, but systems break down. I did read your links and they are reassuring no doubt, but if you ask me to have faith in a system that relies upon signature verification in an age when no one even signs anything anymore, well I see potential problems with that. So, I canât simply rely on the fact that to date, we have no evidence of voting issues. Not a complaint, but an observation/request.
Butâ¦my bigger issue with all this is the politics. Whether itâs the republicans complaining of voter fraud, when there is none, or the democrats saying the system is completely fine as isâ¦as they did with immigration, or spendingâ¦I donât trust either side.
So, the issue is with your perception and mistrust of the process?
Funny how we seem to have basically trusted the process until a certain someone and their party did their damnedest to sow the seeds of doubt. Well, many of those seeds have germinated.
If it ain't broke. Don't fix it.
FYI, it's not broke.
Oh, and if Trump wins, I'm not going to change colors and say the election was rigged. Unless of course there was widespread proof provided otherwise... which of course Trump and his proxies were never able to provide.
.... if you ask me to have faith in a system that relies upon signature verification in an age when no one even signs anything anymore, well I see potential problems with that.....
Would you be less worried if everyone had digital signatures and PINs (a suggestion you made earlier)? People (like Trump) have suggested we go back to paper ballots...and count the results by hand. I think there is a happy medium. Digital voting, collection, and counting enable far too many conspiracies. Just ask FOX and Tucker Carlson.
It would be nice if we could rely on the honor system where people who are registered and able simply vote, without suspicion of fraud. Like it would be nice to believe we can trust companies and managers to operate in a free market system without the need for regulatory oversight. Or that people wouldnât walk out of stores without paying.
Maybe itâs working now, but systems break down. I did read your links and they are reassuring no doubt, but if you ask me to have faith in a system that relies upon signature verification in an age when no one even signs anything anymore, well I see potential problems with that. So, I canât simply rely on the fact that to date, we have no evidence of voting issues. Not a complaint, but an observation/request.
Butâ¦my bigger issue with all this is the politics. Whether itâs the republicans complaining of voter fraud, when there is none, or the democrats saying the system is completely fine as isâ¦as they did with immigration, or spendingâ¦I donât trust either side.
but...it would seem the first bottleneck is registration. Once you pass the hurdle of registering, you are given a unique pin, which is used to vote whatever way you want...and hopefully over a period more than just one special day. Paper trails also seem necessary. But again, not my job.
just because I'm really frustrated with this nonsense:
Once you pass the hurdle of registering. — Okay (we already have a process for this)
, you are given a unique pin — how about we just give you a ballot with a unique code we can track?
which is used to vote whatever way you want. — see above, 2 for 1, efficiency!
hopefully over a period more than just one special day — Done, although there is a last day, common sense and all, as requested.
Paper trails also seem necessary — Done, part of the process already, 3 for 1 now with your ballot.
But again, not my job. — no need, someone has already taken care of it for you. Yay public servants.
from the same people who f'd up abortion rights, migration...and our national finances?
Yes, I'm suspicious that it is too often more about politics than what is right.
I'd note that 'same people' is not really correct unless you just mean people working in the public sector. That's a bit umbrella.
But it's not your job to fix it. But you still want to complain. Even though several people have demonstrated that the process is reliable and errors are rare. You still are 'uncomfortable', yet have not real idea how to address it.
I generally respect your opinion/perspective/argument, but this is just throwing chaff in the air. What we have works. Your fears are unfounded (yet still open for audit and consideration if you can present any evidence at all). what little problems have been found are mostly from 'your side'. It seems you are just unhappy because your opinion appears to be in the minority.
Edit: noting from your earlier post - Although all elections are administered differently, We already have registration, and there is typically a paper trail - that's how recounts are handled, and you already have a way to check that your ballot was counted properly (BallotTrax.coloradosos.gov).
So since there are very few instances of it not working, why don't you trust those whose job it is?
from the same people who f'd up abortion rights, migration...and our national finances?
Yes, I'm suspicious that it is too often more about politics than what is right.
ps. I also believe these "same people" are just a mirror of the people they "serve"
when I took an administrative job, my front line friends said, "NOW you'll fix things." But the people in those positions were already trying to fix things. It's simple from the outside to notice problems, but getting complex, multi-site, machinery to turn - as well as getting all the current systems to be altered minimally or maximally, in the face of "that won't work" criticism and unforeseen obstacles... makes it all very easy to pick an area to critique although the big picture is unbelievably complex.
Simply: imagine how we can uniformly guarantee some excellent voting/tabulation mechanism (doesn't matter which one, but let's imagine one is identified) and then get that accepted by fifty states and then spend the money to implement, trashing most states' already implemented mechanisms and retraining their manpower and convincing the populace that it's not some sort of scheme.
You already started hearing in your mind "States rights!" "We can't do that here!" "Who is gonna pay for that?" etc.
And, after jumping over each of those un-jumpable hurdles, what net, measurable benefit did it result in?
but...it would seem the first bottleneck is registration. Once you pass the hurdle of registering, you are given a unique pin, which is used to vote whatever way you want...and hopefully over a period more than just one special day. Paper trails also seem necessary. But again, not my job.
So since there are very few instances of it not working, why don't you trust those whose job it is?
That is the process that works well (there are other checks as well beyond signature verification). And everywhere I've voted (including Colorado) you can check your own ballot to be sure there isn't a problem. So yes, there is a system and it works. There is no evidence that it doesn't. What do you want to replace it with?
That is not my job
but...it would seem the first bottleneck is registration. Once you pass the hurdle of registering, you are given a unique pin, which is used to vote whatever way you want...and hopefully over a period more than just one special day. Paper trails also seem necessary. But again, not my job.
Apologies for butting in here, but I've been lurking around the forums and saw this discussion. According to Federal law, you can't get a driver's license without proving your legal status (citizen, legal resident, etc.) It's a law that really ruined my day recently because I had to spend a lot of extra time jumping through hoops to get a birth certificate so that I could renew my DL.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Sep 20, 2024 - 10:00am
On a lighter, but relevant note: I know someone who works in the local election office. There was a training for volunteers who would be working the election. They went through all the protocols. At the end, a prospective volunteer asked: âI donât understand. Where does the fraud happen?â The person conducting the training responded: âThatâs the point. It doesnât.â
No, because, thankfully, the DMV accepted my short form BC.
