Radio Paradise

Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 6:40pm
oldviolin wrote: Hitchens was brilliant, fascinating, and as brash as they come. I always enjoyed his interviews, even when I disagreed with his premise or tactics. I also found him quite wounded. Why? Because he didn't believe in Santa Claus?

winter

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 5:53pm
ptooey wrote: I read Cal Thomas' response to Hitchens' death this morning. It pretty clearly illustrated the biggest problem with debating religion - defenders of religion use their religion to defend their religion. Ack, what a hack.

oldviolin

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 5:04pm
Hitchens was brilliant, fascinating, and as brash as they come. I always enjoyed his interviews, even when I disagreed with his premise or tactics. I also found him quite wounded.

Lazy8

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 3:07pm
MusicIsMotion wrote: 'Nuff said. Thanks for the exchange. And no, I'd prefer not to have anything demolished by you. You're one of the intelligent and respect-worthy individuals I referred to in my initial post. I can agree to disagree with you... without becoming aggravated over it even. Namaste.

ScottN

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 3:03pm

Lazy8 wrote:

MusicIsMotion wrote:

I think he nailed it slap on the head. I'm curious to know why his words anger you.

I know for a fact Hitchens spent years studying the foundational texts of the various religions he criticized. He knew his scripture. And his Koran. And the Greek gods before them both.

I doubt Cal Thomas ever read a single book Hitchens wrote.

He also trotted out the oldest, hoariest, most transparently fraudulent argument theists have: without our religion to guide human behavior we'd all be evil brutish hedonists.

Ponder for a moment how ridiculous (not to mention insulting) that looks to someone who lives without belief in the supernatural—and who lives a moral life. If you need that demolished for you I'll be happy to crush that notion like a bug.

Well said. I read & watched Hitchens consistently over the past 25 yrs+. It is my opinion that in the past five years or so he became somewhat more truculent and provocative, and also less tolerant and patient. He never suffered fools well—ever. But in the last few years he was even less tolerant and more outspoken. Also (my guess) perhaps less happy or "satisfied". It seems at this point of hindsight that he was at his creative best during the Reagan years.
I think he was conflicted (again, my surmise) on Iraq as time went on, and that wore on him as well.

Do not go gentle....

Coaxial

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:58pm
MusicIsMotion wrote: 'Nuff said. Thanks for the exchange. And no, I'd prefer not to have anything demolished by you. You're one of the intelligent and respect-worthy individuals I referred to in my initial post. I can agree to disagree with you... without becoming aggravated over it even. Come on, man, we have had a good bug crushing around here in like forever....

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:55pm

Lazy8 wrote:

MusicIsMotion wrote:

I think he nailed it slap on the head. I'm curious to know why his words anger you.

'Nuff said. Thanks for the exchange. And no, I'd prefer not to have anything demolished by you. You're one of the intelligent and respect-worthy individuals I referred to in my initial post. I can agree to disagree with you... without becoming aggravated over it even.

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:39pm

MusicIsMotion wrote:

I think he nailed it slap on the head. I'm curious to know why his words anger you.

ScottFromWyoming

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:31pm

Lazy8 wrote:

ptooey wrote:

I read Cal Thomas' response to Hitchens' death this morning. It pretty clearly illustrated the biggest problem with debating religion - defenders of religion use their religion to defend their religion.

Cal Thomas makes me want to take the gloves off and give him a Hitchslap. But instead I'll bite my tongue.

Again.

That blowhole has been in the Billings paper for years and I never saw him say anything right. His wrongness is all-encompassing. Blind squirrels and clocks wonder how anything can be so wrong.

edit:

(former member)

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:30pm

Lazy8 wrote:

ptooey wrote:

Cal Thomas makes me want to take the gloves off and give him a Hitchslap. But instead I'll bite my tongue.

Again.

I think he nailed it slap on the head. I'm curious to know why his words anger you.

*edit* ~ I don't care for the guy either, honestly, but his statements were non-inflammatory in my opinion and I suppose I do agree with the questions that he asked.

Lazy8

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 2:09pm
ptooey wrote: I read Cal Thomas' response to Hitchens' death this morning. It pretty clearly illustrated the biggest problem with debating religion - defenders of religion use their religion to defend their religion. Cal Thomas makes me want to take the gloves off and give him a Hitchslap. But instead I'll bite my tongue. Again.

ptooey

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 1:43pm

Lazy8 wrote:

What he was was blunt. He didn't tiptoe around the issue at hand.

The whole format and paradigm of debate requires laying out your thesis and defending it with logic. Religion defies logic by its very nature. Debating religion is thus to some extent pointless...not that it stopped anybody he debated.

But that doesn't mean there aren't religious topics worth debating; if one religion seeks to be favored over others (as many Christians seek in this country, Hindus do in India, Muslims do throughout the middle east, etc.) that bears discussion and debate, for instance. But if a religious person demands that atheists accommodate their beliefs because it hurts their feelings to be told that they are deluding themselves that person probably shouldn't venture into the debate arena in the first place.

I try to be more sensitive to other people's feelings than that and I very seldom speak that bluntly. It isn't persuasive in general, and when I get into that kind of debate the only thing at stake is my continued friendship with whomever I'm arguing. But when Hitchens faced the Right Reverend Whoever the stakes were considerably higher, the time was limited, and he needed to be concise and forceful. When I argue religion I may soften the blow out of respect for the basic humanity of the person I'm debating, but Hitchens' views on religion, at heart, are identical to mine. The delight he took in humiliating a debate opponent was inversely proportional to the respect he had for him, and that instinct rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

I don't behave that way (at least I try not to) but after a lifetime of biting my tongue there are times I wish I could. And if I had his eloquence I don't know if I could resist that temptation.

Lazy8

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 1:36pm

sirdroseph wrote:

I have always thought that he used exteme hyperbole and was purposely offensive and boorish simply so people would listen to his point of how religion or humans corruption of belief has so adversely affected civilization in so many ways. In other words he was the Lady Ga Ga of atheistic philosophy.

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 1:32pm
hippiechick wrote: Not true. Think of unreasonable people - Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, on and on. Here, this was in my Mensa newsletter The Unleashed Mind: Why Creative People Are Eccentric I don't associate either of those people with Christopher Hitchens. All he did apparently was raise argument, treat people badly and imbibe, most of the time, I suspect, simultaneously.

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 1:15pm
MusicIsMotion wrote: Unreasonable people change it in the worst ways. Not true. Think of unreasonable people - Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, on and on. Here, this was in my Mensa newsletter The Unleashed Mind: Why Creative People Are Eccentric

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:53pm
hippiechick wrote: Reasonable people do not change the world. Unreasonable people change it in the worst ways.

hippiechick

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:29pm
MusicIsMotion wrote: Damnit, that's funny. Accurate... and funny. Reasonable people do not change the world.

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:26pm
sirdroseph wrote: I have always thought that he used exteme hyperbole and was purposely offensive and boorish simply so people would listen to his point of how religion or humans corruption of belief has so adversely affected civilization in so many ways. In other words he was the Lady Ga Ga of atheistic philosophy. Damnit, that's funny. Accurate... and funny.

sirdroseph

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Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:15pm

steeler wrote:

Sometimes, it is a fine line between rebel and boor.

I'm always interested in the part of the collective "us" that tends to give a pass to otherwise churlish behavior because of a person's prodigious talents or intellect. It's really not an excuse for otherwise bad bahavior or self-promoting behavior, yet, somehow, we act as if it is or should be. I suspect Hitch engaged in some of both, although I confess that I do not know that much about him. I have read some of his written products. And I have read stories that showed him to be generous and kind. So, maybe much of it is an act that becomes one's stage personality. The larger-than-life thing. Saw some of the same stuff about Steve Jobs. And I admit that I followed and enjoyed Hunter S. Thompson.

steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth

Posted: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:11pm

romeotuma wrote:

Here's another graceful eulogy...

HITCH
by Jane Mayer
The New Yorker
December 16, 2011

Christopher Hitchens was a supernova in Washington. Amidst the dreary, self-editing power-seekers, he was a wild and beautiful boy, out to seduce, provoke, and dazzle. The thirty or so years that we were friends are studded with indelible memories. Here's just one that can't be forgotten:

On assignment in Palm Beach, Hitchens scored an invitation to dine at the town's most exclusive, and allegedly anti-Semitic, country club. Though he admired Trotsky, truth be told Hitch revelled in the high life. But having discovered his own Jewish heritage late in life, he was hell-bent on making the most of it. After generous libations at the bar, Hitchens and a small party of friends, including his wife Carol Blue, were ceremoniously seated at a table in the midst of the stuffy dining room. Surrounded by billionaires politely nibbling at Crab Louis with their families, Hitch was presented with the establishment's menu. There was a pause, as he scanned the entries. Then, at a volume designed to be heard on all eighteen holes of the adjoining golf course, Hitch handed back the menu to the waiter and boomed, "This won't do. I NEED THE KOSHER MENU!"

After the ensuing commotion, the member who had hosted Hitch was suspended, and a new club-house rule was passed: added to the list of social taboos from that day on was an absolute ban on journalists.

Hitch lived so large, and so beyond the rules, that his mortality seems especially hard to accept. I remember the day some eighteen months ago when he told me that he was mortally ill. He had missed a few stops on his book tour, which wasn't like him, so I called to see if he was all right. "No," he said frankly. "I'm not. I have cancer." I was so stricken for the next few days that I couldn't get much work done. Then I noticed that during the time that I was using his illness as an excuse to procrastinate, he had himself authored a handful of brilliant pieces. I couldn't work, but he couldn't stop working. He was a born writer, whose irrepressible talent and verve put most of the rest of us journeymen to shame.

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The Unleashed Mind: Why Creative People Are Eccentric

The Unleashed Mind: Why Creative People Are Eccentric