[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

What Did You See Today? - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 18, 2024 - 7:02pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 18, 2024 - 6:49pm
 
Music library - nightdrive - May 18, 2024 - 1:28pm
 
Trump - Red_Dragon - May 18, 2024 - 1:21pm
 
Radio Paradise Comments - GeneP59 - May 18, 2024 - 12:04pm
 
NYTimes Connections - Bill_J - May 18, 2024 - 11:50am
 
Israel - R_P - May 18, 2024 - 11:35am
 
NY Times Strands - geoff_morphini - May 18, 2024 - 10:46am
 
Wordle - daily game - geoff_morphini - May 18, 2024 - 10:40am
 
What Makes You Laugh? - Beaker - May 18, 2024 - 10:32am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - miamizsun - May 18, 2024 - 9:01am
 
Baseball, anyone? - rgio - May 18, 2024 - 8:28am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - May 18, 2024 - 7:08am
 
The Obituary Page - DaveInSaoMiguel - May 18, 2024 - 4:18am
 
Paul McCartney - miamizsun - May 18, 2024 - 4:06am
 
Virginia News - Steely_D - May 18, 2024 - 2:51am
 
Gnomad here. Who farking deleted my thread? - Red_Dragon - May 17, 2024 - 5:59pm
 
The Dragons' Roost - triskele - May 17, 2024 - 4:04pm
 
Name My Band - jim.stimeck - May 17, 2024 - 3:18pm
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - ScottFromWyoming - May 17, 2024 - 1:43pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - Beaker - May 17, 2024 - 1:28pm
 
DIY - black321 - May 17, 2024 - 9:16am
 
May 2024 Photo Theme - Peaceful - Isabeau - May 17, 2024 - 9:02am
 
Other Medical Stuff - Isabeau - May 17, 2024 - 9:00am
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - Isabeau - May 17, 2024 - 8:44am
 
TV shows you watch - Steely_D - May 17, 2024 - 3:14am
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - ScottN - May 16, 2024 - 7:00pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - RPnate1 - May 16, 2024 - 3:33pm
 
Your Local News - Proclivities - May 16, 2024 - 12:51pm
 
Alexa Show - thisbody - May 16, 2024 - 12:15pm
 
What can you hear right now? - thisbody - May 16, 2024 - 11:00am
 
Things You Thought Today - thisbody - May 16, 2024 - 10:25am
 
Joe Biden - Steely_D - May 16, 2024 - 1:02am
 
Climate Change - R_P - May 15, 2024 - 9:38pm
 
Strange signs, marquees, billboards, etc. - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 15, 2024 - 4:13pm
 
how do you feel right now? - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 15, 2024 - 4:10pm
 
China - R_P - May 15, 2024 - 1:40pm
 
What the hell OV? - oldviolin - May 15, 2024 - 12:38pm
 
Song of the Day - oldviolin - May 15, 2024 - 11:50am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - May 15, 2024 - 11:48am
 
Science is bullsh*t - oldviolin - May 15, 2024 - 11:44am
 
NASA & other news from space - Beaker - May 15, 2024 - 9:29am
 
Artificial Intelligence - thisbody - May 15, 2024 - 8:25am
 
Human Rights (Can Science Point The Way) - miamizsun - May 15, 2024 - 5:50am
 
Play the Blues - Steely_D - May 15, 2024 - 1:50am
 
Animal Resistance - R_P - May 14, 2024 - 6:37pm
 
2024 Elections! - R_P - May 14, 2024 - 6:00pm
 
Fascism In America - Red_Dragon - May 14, 2024 - 4:27pm
 
punk? hip-hop? metal? noise? garage? - thisbody - May 14, 2024 - 1:27pm
 
Social Media Are Changing Everything - Red_Dragon - May 14, 2024 - 8:08am
 
Internet connection - ai63 - May 14, 2024 - 7:53am
 
Congress - Red_Dragon - May 13, 2024 - 8:22pm
 
Ukraine - R_P - May 13, 2024 - 5:50pm
 
What The Hell Buddy? - oldviolin - May 13, 2024 - 1:25pm
 
Surfing! - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 13, 2024 - 1:21pm
 
Bad Poetry - oldviolin - May 13, 2024 - 11:38am
 
See This Film - Red_Dragon - May 13, 2024 - 8:35am
 
Podcast recommendations??? - ColdMiser - May 13, 2024 - 7:50am
 
News of the Weird - Red_Dragon - May 13, 2024 - 5:05am
 
Those Lovable Policemen - R_P - May 12, 2024 - 11:31am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - May 12, 2024 - 9:16am
 
The All-Things Beatles Forum - Steely_D - May 12, 2024 - 9:04am
 
Poetry Forum - ScottN - May 12, 2024 - 6:32am
 
Beer - ScottFromWyoming - May 10, 2024 - 8:58pm
 
It's the economy stupid. - thisbody - May 10, 2024 - 3:21pm
 
Oh dear god, BEES! - R_P - May 10, 2024 - 3:11pm
 
Tornado! - miamizsun - May 10, 2024 - 2:49pm
 
The 1960s - kcar - May 10, 2024 - 2:49pm
 
Marko Haavisto & Poutahaukat - thisbody - May 10, 2024 - 7:57am
 
Living in America - Proclivities - May 10, 2024 - 6:45am
 
Outstanding Covers - Steely_D - May 10, 2024 - 12:56am
 
Democratic Party - R_P - May 9, 2024 - 3:06pm
 
RP on HomePod mini - RPnate1 - May 9, 2024 - 10:52am
 
Interesting Words - Proclivities - May 9, 2024 - 10:22am
 
Breaking News - maryte - May 9, 2024 - 7:17am
 
Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » illegal immigrants Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 101, 102, 103  Next
Post to this Topic
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 13, 2019 - 9:52pm

 kurtster wrote:
 
Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?

.
 kcar wrote:
 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).


Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?

Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple.  It has nothing to do with crime rates, at all.  You and others keep ignoring that point.  Instead you simply talk about crime rates, not the crimes they commit.  You excuse the crimes they commit by saying that they are no more likely to commit crimes than any other people who are here legally.  So effing what.  

If they were not here, the crimes they commit would not happen.  Why is that so hard to accept and understand ?


 
 
 
"Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?"




No. There is a sizable group of Americans who don't like immigrants at all. And no, I was not trying to indirectly snark at you.



"Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?"

 
 
Hey, rockstar: the next time you quote an article, try capturing ALL of the relevant text—like this:



"Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero)."



"Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple."




READ  the piece. Effectively it's saying that if you have a group of only native and immigrant Americans and another group of equal size consisting of native, legal- and illegal-immigrants, you're going to have similar or lower crime rates with the second group, esp. for violent crimes. From what I can tell, if you have a population of only native Americans (not Native Americans as in "Indians"), you will have higher crime rates than a population with immigrants.
 
You seem to think that if by majick you rid the US of illegal immigrants, crime rates will go down. That's not the case. A murder or rape is horrible no matter who does it. A crime committed by an illegal immigrant is no worse than one committed by a native or legal immigrant. In aggregate, you will have the same or more crimes including violent crimes even if you totally wipe out illegal immigration. Joe Smith might get murdered by an illegal Jose Jimenez and yes that's awful. But if Don Chapman, whose family has been in the US for 300 years, takes Jose's place in an area and kills Sally Whitechapel, that's just as awful.
 
You're not going to make the US safer or more peaceful by harshly cracking down on illegal immigration: you just make the people trying to get in more desperate and more willing to put themselves into the hands of people who will take advantage of them and commit crimes against them, like coyotes.
 
You could argue against illegal immigration by focusing on the risks and harms that illegal immigrants face, but that would likely take an intelligent and moral person in another direction—towards trying to help illegals and addressing the long-term causes for their attempts to enter the US. Something the GOP and Trump can't or won't think about.
 
I believe that citizens of a country have a right to determine their nation's immigration policy. I don't believe in open borders without question. I think that any prosperous and peaceful country is always going to have to grapple with illegal immigration. From what I can tell however, a harsh and greatly limiting immigration policy a la the Trump administration's is ineffective, inhuman and counter-productive.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 13, 2019 - 8:42pm

 kcar wrote:

 
  I think anti-immigrants can't intuitively grasp that immigrants often build up the country from the bottom of the economic pile; they just see takers and thieves and strange people not willing to assimilate.


  
Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?

.
 kcar wrote:
 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).


Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?

Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple.  It has nothing to do with crime rates, at all.  You and others keep ignoring that point.  Instead you simply talk about crime rates, not the crimes they commit.  You excuse the crimes they commit by saying that they are no more likely to commit crimes than any other people who are here legally.  So effing what.  

If they were not here, the crimes they commit would not happen.  Why is that so hard to accept and understand ?



kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 13, 2019 - 5:07pm

 westslope wrote:


 kcar wrote:
  
.......

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.
................

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 
 
I am little surprised that these findings are not viewed as intuitively appealing by large numbers of Americans.   

As a community organizer for the UFW AFL-CIO in the Phoenix, AZ outlying suburbs, the odd time I came across illegal farm workers, they were nervous and remained constantly on full alert.  No matter how hard I tried, I could not make make them feel comfortable or relax.  Despite my Spanish and slang being better than any other blue-eyed white person in the entire region. 

The illegal status will provide ample incentives to behave well and avoid the attention of the police and other agents of the state.

 
 
 
Suspicions about immigrants legal and otherwise have a long history—based not  in fact but in fear of the unknown and fear of being displaced, economically and culturally. Americans supposedly take pride in the notion that their country is a melting pot willing to take refugees from other countries but that pride always seems to look back in time and not at the present. I think anti-immigrants can't intuitively grasp that immigrants often build up the country from the bottom of the economic pile; they just see takers and thieves and strange people not willing to assimilate.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: May 13, 2019 - 4:33pm



 kcar wrote:
  
.......

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.
................

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 
 
I am little surprised that these findings are not viewed as intuitively appealing by large numbers of Americans.   

As a community organizer for the UFW AFL-CIO in the Phoenix, AZ outlying suburbs, the odd time I came across illegal farm workers, they were nervous and remained constantly on full alert.  No matter how hard I tried, I could not make make them feel comfortable or relax.  Despite my Spanish and slang being better than any other blue-eyed white person in the entire region. 

The illegal status will provide ample incentives to behave well and avoid the attention of the police and other agents of the state.


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 13, 2019 - 3:01pm

 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 

...

 

 

The analysis found that crime went down at similar rates regardless of whether the undocumented population rose or fell. Areas with more unauthorized migration appeared to have larger drops in crime, although the difference was small and uncertain.

 

 

...

 

 

 

Most types of crime had an almost flat trend line, indicating that changes in undocumented populations had little or no effect on crime in the various metro areas under survey. Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).

 

 

 

...

 

 

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.

More research is underway about the potential effects of undocumented immigration on crime. Robert Adelman, a professor at the University at Buffalo, SUNY, whose group’s research The Marshall Project and The Upshot have previously documented, is leading a team to expand on the Governing analysis. Early results suggest unauthorized immigration has no effect on violent crime, and is associated with lower property crime, the same as Mr. Maciag found.

 

 

...

 

 

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 

 

 

 

 


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 9:12pm

 kurtster wrote:
Amazing how stupid some people are.  And they are reproducing at an exponential rate.
 
You need to go back to school to understand basic math.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 9:08pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?
 
She's sure making a lot of old white guys very uncomfortable.
 
Not this one.  With only about 5 more years left in this body, it is unlikely to have much of an impact on me.

I do hope that I live long enough to see the shock of the gimme, gimme / instant gratification culture when they find out when aircraft are gone, their 2nd day / next day delivery of their stuff is gone, too.  High speed trains can move people but not freight.  2nd week delivery might be the best you can get.  And then to electrify the entire railroad system ... there ain't enough copper to do it.  No nuclear, no petroleum to fuel the electric grid.  Yeah, solar and wind can do it all.  Uh, huh.  Deforest the planet to replace / retrofit all buildings ?

Amazing how stupid some people are.  And they are reproducing at an exponential rate.  Explains why things are the way they are.  {#Cheesygrin}

We need a New Green Deal thread.  Oh how much fun it will be !!
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 7:56pm

 kurtster wrote:
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?

She's sure making a lot of old white guys very uncomfortable. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 7:47pm

 R_P wrote:

Unless you want to rely on paranoia, then intent still requires evidence. 
 
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 12:39am

Why the Wall Will Never Rise
Trump is no match for the Texas border barons.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 3:27pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
R_P wrote:

At least 4 grandparents born in America
.

If that's her minimum standard...what's the maximum?


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 3:21pm

R_P wrote:

At least 4 grandparents born in America
.

If that's her minimum standard...what's the maximum?
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 2:02pm

Dear Ann Coulter: Ben Franklin didn’t think you or Trump are White, Either (2016)
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2019 - 2:47pm


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 4:14am

 kurtster wrote:
(...) The intent however, remains unchanged and the intent matters most.
 
Unless you want to rely on paranoia, then intent still requires evidence. So far you haven't provided any. You should get by now how that works.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 2:10am

 R_P wrote:
So, did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election? Or does he only present the good news?

 
You're up late.  I'm pretty much done and going to get flat soon.

and I have not yet heard Trump's specific remarks on this. Sure that I will soon enough.

g'nite
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 1:56am

So, did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election? Or does he only present the good news?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 1:51am

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
 
You've already asserted that good news is out of bounds and thus they won't do that. In your conspiracy they only report the bad stuff (never mind that 69% of Republicans would re-elect, which sounds pretty good if you're in that gang). Then why not just post the additional bad news? Because then they would, all of a sudden, have this obligation to post the good news, which supposedly they won't/wouldn't do anyway. SRSLY?

PS: Did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election?

 
You are forgetting republican support is a given and must show up.  It doesn't count as good news, unless it drops.  What matters most are the I's and the D's.  Or D's really because most polls only mention the two parties.

So other than the republican approval numbers, anything else that might show good news is buried and glossed over by omission as in this particular piece's cover story.  It's quite common to do that, right ?  Like good news will only show in the backs pages of anything printed.  And retractions get buried in the back pages to make sure that the original version of a story sticks.  The Intercept article you posted goes into that.

So with the one exception taken, there is no contradiction.  If you don't allow the exception for the republican approval numbers, then yes there would be a technical contradiction.  The intent however, remains unchanged and the intent matters most.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 10:37pm

 kurtster wrote:
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
 
You've already asserted that good news is out of bounds and thus they won't do that. In your conspiracy they only report the bad stuff (never mind that 69% of Republicans would re-elect, which sounds pretty good if you're in that gang). Then why not just post the additional bad news? Because then they would, all of a sudden, have this obligation to post the good news, which supposedly they won't/wouldn't do anyway. SRSLY?

PS: Did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 10:20pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Nope, any admission of good news for Trump is out of bounds.  To show your point (the bad news) would require showing the good news. (...)
 
You don't see the contradiction there, right?
 
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 101, 102, 103  Next